Open reply to ICG
Ben Silva UK
Dear Sir/Madam,
Serious errors in Asia Report N°135
14 June 2007 and your website
Thank you very much for your reply. Although you may not want a response
from me, the errors in your website are so serious and your influence
is significant that I, as a member of the public has duty to expose
the truth. You, as an international body has the responsibility to hear
my comments, that are provided with evidence, references and sources.
If you are not prepared to hear comments, please do not publish or make
unsubstantiated statements, or mislead the world with a report that
look very similar to LTTE propaganda material. Please read on as I will
show that ICG is simply reflecting LTTE views.
Regards,
Ben Silva (14 - 8 - 07)
Main text of my letter
Your reply to my initial letter and details of my letters are given
in the appendix A for the benefit of readers. Appendix B forms further
response to your incorrect statements.
I read your Asia Report N°135 14 June 2007 but was unable
to verify certain important statements (given on executive summary)
for accuracy, authenticity or validity of the reports, as no sources
or references were given. The report appeared to carefully crafted,
with selective information and appropriate wording to project a pro
LTTE and anti Sri Lanka image. The anti Sri Lanka stand and the venom
showed towards Sri Lanka is almost unbelievable, when all Sri Lanka
is doing is fighting to survive against Tamil racist empire builders.
Your report, written with a tone of arrogance and demonstrating unjustifiable
hatred and venom towards Sri Lanka. It is most certainly a biased report
in favour of LTTE and excessively anti GOSL.
The report hardly dealt with the main issues related to human rights
crisis, that affects all Sri Lankans:
Terrorism producing orphans, disabled persons, blind persons, and causing
fear, mental illnesses and stress.
Ethnic cleansing, depriving livelihood and homes of innocent people
Loss of life of law enforcement officers and security forces
Fund raising in the West that cause Terrorism and destruction in Sri
Lanka.
The following factors are important factors that fuel terrorism:
1 Fund raising by LTTE in the West,
2. Tax evasion using bogus charities
3. human trafficking,
4. arms purchase and arms trafficking,
5 export and trade of terror technology,
6 credit card fraud,
7 money laundering,
8 identification fraud,
9 counterfeit trade,
10 passport fraud
The report hardly dealt with the above issues other than saying Maintain
pressure on LTTE financing and extortion of the Tamil diaspora.
. The report did not look at issues that fuel terrorism that lead to
HR abuses linked to terrorism. The report was quick enough to blame
Sri Lanka, for inaction by GOSL, whilst it did not blame Western countries
for turning a blind eye on LTTE fund raising. In fact, because Western
countries turned a blind eye for LTTE , they should have been blamed
and made accountable for destruction in Sri Lanka. India created and
armed LTTE to cause instability in Sri Lanka. They soon realised their
error and stopped supporting LTTE. LTTE, no. 2, ie Karuna left LTTE
and accused Prabakaran for the deaths in Sri Lanka. Western countries
have allowed this monster to grow, and should bear full responsibility
for the death and destruction in Sri Lanka. For some strange reason,
LTTE have become the darlings of some HR groups, making me suspect that
some HR groups may have been infiltrated. It is sad that when the GOSL
is trying to eradicate poverty and terrorism, well paid NGO officials
try to increase misery and poverty, by supporting terrorists, when they
are about to be confronted. Also it has to be investigated if there
is an attempt to bully Sri Lanka.
Terrorism can be stopped, without loss of life if factors that fuel
terrorism are dealt.
Thanks to the West, LTTE has grown to a rich powerful monster, that
may have even infiltrated HR organisations. So dealing with LTTE may
not be an easy matter, due to its financial power.
The report 135 should have said Fund raising should be halted,
giving residency to bogus refugees should be halted, arms trafficking
should be halted etc.
The report did not deal with the matter of distress of victims and
compensation of the victims. Compensation should be paid by countries
that allow fundraising to take place. Compensation of victims is an
important matter and should not be swept under the carpet.
My comments on
SRI LANKAS HUMAN RIGHTS CRISIS Asia Report N°135
14 June 2007
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS page of your report contains
the key allegations against Sri Lanka. There are no references or sources
against the key allegations and statements related to Sri Lanka in the
page. The references should have been easy to see so that it is possible
to verify the accuracy, validity and authenticity of the statements.
To determine if an organisation has been infiltrated by LTTE, we need
to watch its conduct and monitor statements, as LTTE will not state
in public, when they have infiltrated an organisation.
As the evidence shows, infiltration by LTTE of an NGO, is not in the
hypothetical domain, it has happened for real.
A news report indicates:
A Tiger Intelligence operative who was taken into custody in
Chilaw along with communication equipment disclosed that he had served
as human rights activist in a NGO after the tsunami in 2004.
ref: http://www.dailymirror.lk/2007/08/10/front/08.asp
With the amount of profit LTTE makes, and its previous record on bribery,
it is possible for LTTE to infiltrate any organisation. In fact, LTTE
has the capacity to buy an NGO for its propaganda.
It is thought that LTTE agents infiltrate politicians by becoming volunteers
first.
To see how LTTE operates please read the following:
Ref. http://www.asiantribune.com/index.php?q=node/5889
It would be nice to know who your researchers are, their background,
their credentials and their remuneration. Organisations that make false
allegations should be open for scrutiny.
It is also revealed that the well known peace maker Eric Solheim has
received help from the LTTE when he bought his new house
in Oslo. Ref. http://www.svik.org/nat1.pdf.
As you can see LTTE can influence almost any body, including NGOs.
Please see Real Hustle to see how easy it is to be deceived.
It appears that you may have been deceived by LTTE agents.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/programmes/real_hustle/scams.shtml
As your report appeared to be an LTTE propaganda document, I suspected
that there could be a structural fault in your research methodology.
I also wanted to find sources for your wild allegations. So as I searched
through the document, I found the potential point for LTTE infiltration.
Source for possible LTTE infiltration
The appendix B, About the international crisis group Page 34 of the
report states:
Crisis Groups approach is grounded in field research.
Teams of political analysts are located within or close by countries
at risk of outbreak, escalation or recurrence of violent conflict. Based
on information and assessments from the field, it produces analytical
reports containing practical recommendations targeted at key international
decision-takers.
This is where errors or misinformation could creep in, through political
analysts.
Political analysts could be:
LTTE agents, influenced by camouflaged LTTE fronts, LTTE sympathisers,
paid by LTTE, influenced by LTTE using psychology, influenced by LTTE
using gifts and entertainment.
I have given above, few of the methods your political analysts could
have been influenced.
I will give you the further evidence and you could come to your own
conclusions.
Your statement in ref. http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=4459&l=1
( errors in your website )
(1) Tamils, who have traditionally inhabited
the northern and eastern regions,
My response:-
This is an unsubstantiated and incorrect statement. Evidence is provided
by me that North and East were Sinhala areas. Sinhalese have been ethnically
cleansed. Systematic ethnic cleansing by Tamils racists have driven
away the Sinhalese from their homes in the past and are doing the same
now.
Jaffna was inhabited by Tamils. The central Lanka also has Tamils, brought
in by the British.
I mentioned clearly all Sri Lanka is for its citizens.
Claims such as (1) are made my LTTE agents, your statement coincide
that of LTTE.
Evidence that North and East were Sinhala areas
In Sri Lanka, the indigenous population for over 5000 years was Sinhalese.
Archaeological and ancient documents such as Mahavansa (http://www.nexcorpsl.com/sinhala/Mahavansa.htm
) indicate that Sri Lanka was the home of Sinhalese. Ruins of ancient
cities such as Anuradhapura and Pollonuruwa have ample evidence that
Northern Sri Lanka was the home of Sinhalese. Further, if we look at
recent history, it is documented that Robert Knox, the first Englishman
to visit Sri Lanka, who landed in Trincomalee was taken to the King
in Kandy. This clearly indicates that Trincomalee was under the control
of the Kandy King.
Ref http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Knox_(sailor).
Even Mutur, Sinhala name Mooduthora was a Sinhala area, with a Sinhala
name. What a load of codswallop for LTTE to claim it is a Tamil area.
It appears that the IC and the ICG has been taken for a ride by LTTE.
You have not done your research, but merely regurgitated LTTE propaganda
material.
References on ethnic cleansing
(1) http://www.spur.asn.au/ (Good
site for LTTE atrocities )
(2) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/526407.stm#
(3) http://www.colombopage.com/archive_07/July31132233SL.html
(4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiJTIL_3GaY&NR=1
(2) Your statement :- The Sinhalese parties have consistently
failed to agree on a reasonable autonomy proposals
My response:-
Please substantiate It was LTTE that always breached peace
agreements.
Again you dont blame LTTE but blames Sinhalese parties
shows your obvious bias, also shows that your views are similar to that
of the views of LTTE.
Comments on the report - Asia Report N°135
14 June 2007
The report failed to identify the root cause of human rights problems
in Sri Lanka. To comment on Sri Lankas conduct we need to have
a standard. For example, an IQ test, has a standard for comparison.
Without an appropriate standard for comparison, comments on Sri Lankas
conduct does not do justice to Sri Lanka. To see if Sri Lankas
conduct is justifiable in the real world, we have to see the reaction
of democratic countries when faced with a situation similar to Sri Lanka.
The report lacked reality as it did not even compare similar situations.
A report in isolation, as it lacks comparison, could be used to provide
propaganda, as it has happened now.
When you compare the conduct of other countries with that of Sri Lanka,
it clearly shows that Sri Lankas conduct has been good, even though
it has been subjected to unprecedented levels of terrorism and violence.
Details of comparison given below.
Let us compare Sri Lanka and UK for a moment
Steven Lawrence, an innocent Black student killed and UK had adequate
resources, detective facilities and even an eye witness for the Murder.
The killer was not caught and given any punishment. Lawrence case is
merely tip of the ice burg, and I am sorry that I had to mention it.
How do you expect Sri Lankan Govt., with limited resources to catch
all criminals, when the UK Govt. could not even catch a murderer ? Come
on ICG, get real.
Police brutality to Muslims are reported in the press as well.
UK has only a tiny fraction of terror experienced by Sri Lanka. Let
us see the performance of UK. Jean Charles de Menezes, a Brazilian was
shot eight times and killed by the Police, after boarding a London Underground
train. Any cover ups there ?
Another person was shot and wounded.
ICG please get real, and do not hound Sri Lanka.
There is violence, torture, kidnapping, murder in London.
1. Ross Kemp examines Sri Lankan Tamil Gang Crime in London.
Violence, Torture, Kidnapping, Murder are committed by Tamil gangs
in Britain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqZlBygiVlg
Did the UK Government manage to control it?
Did ICG or any other HR group criticize the UK Govt. ?
There is active fund raising for terrorism in UK
Did the ICG or any other HR group criticize the UK Govt. ?
Why are you hounding Sri Lanka, when the Western Governments are the
root cause of the problem by letting in bogus refugees and then turning
a blind eye for fund raising ?
Did the UK Govt. stop the fund raising for terrorism that is going
on ?
So why is the ICG hounding only Sri Lanka with such venom and hatred
that it becomes so obvious that you are doing the dirty work for LTTE
?
Human rights are absolutely sacred. It is sad to see HR organisations
to be hijacked by persons with no morality, Principles, values or ethical
standards.
Double standards
Let us look at the past and then get to the present.
Remember UK and USA, fire bombed Dresdon, in Germany, killing Civilians,
during WWII. The fire bombing of Dresden in World War II, between Febrruary
13 and February 15, 1945 killed thousands of people. Remember USA, dropped
nuclear bombs in Japan to defeat empire builders, killing over 200,000,
in just two bombs, when National security was at risk. Also USA rounded
up Japanese Americans, and put them into camps, because they were considered
to be a threat.
You know what the Australians did to the Vietnamese. Do you know of
war crimes committed by Australians ?
You may be aware of the large number of deaths to young Iraqi children
during because of an embargo.
You do not need me to tell you that.
Your hands are not squeaky clean.
Get real ICG.
In Sri Lanka, deaths or potential deaths are pale in comparison. But
remember we are dealing with a powerful terror group that has killed
over 22 MPs and leaders of India and Sri Lanka. During the Falklands
war, a retreating ship (Belgrano) was sunk killing over 800.
We must have the same rules for all countries and the rules must be
applied in a consistent manner. We must not change the rules as we go
along.
Deaths and other activities in Sri Lanka are pale in comparison to
deaths caused by USA and UK .So please stop hounding Sri Lanka. By hounding
and stopping aid to Sri Lanka you are indirectly supporting terrorists
The present
Let us now see the conduct of Western Governments, when their territorial
integrity was at risk. Western Govts. invaded Iraq, to prevent a threat
to their country. The invasion, as we know now was on a false pretext.
There was of false research data, just like in Sri Lanka now.
The invasion in Iraq has resulted in the deaths of over 650000 civilians.
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html)
What ever the death toll in Iraq, it is massive compared to the potential
death toll in Sri Lanka.
Remember accounts of abuse, rape, and torture of prisoners in the
Abu Gharib prison, in Iraq.
I am not criticising the decision of the leaders of USA or UK. The
decisions were taken by the leaders of respective countries to protect
their countries. The Sri Lankan is entitled to take suitable and reasonable
decisions to protect Sri Lanka. You made no protests, when LTTE went
on a killing spree (62 deaths ) on the Dollar and Kent farm. You have
no basis whatsoever to protest, when the Sri Lankan president is using
reasonable force to protect Sri Lanka.
HR groups have enough to do in Iraq and Afganistan, where abuse of
HR are much higher.
Instead they hound a small country that is fighting to survive terrorism
funded from Western countries. It gives the feeling of neo colonialism
is in operation by groups that have no sense of morality, values, or
ethics doing ground work for an invasion.
Abuse in UK
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6136902.stm
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1535151,00.html
http://www.rediff.com/us/2001/sep/18uk.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1575532,00.html
http://www.islamictimes.co.uk/content/view/672/
The way forward is to separate Human rights issues from LTTE propaganda.
Some organisations can learn from Red Cross. NGOs should never
recruit LTTE agents into their ranks.
Summary
Your report (N°135 ) did not have references or sources on important
allegations against Sri Lanka, given on executive summary. The report
and statements on the webside, gave the impression that they were produced
for the consumption of gullible, with the specific purpose of tarnishing
the image Sri Lanka. As the report did not have references for important
statements , they were not verifiable for accuracy, authenticity and
validity. The report had an arrogant tone with hatred and venom towards
Sri Lanka. The report merely reflected biased opinion, of an LTTE sympathiser,
with an anti govt. stand. The report did not look into the root cause
of the problem and is an attempt to mislead the International Community
with a pro LTTE and anti Government view. The report did not recognise
that deaths and HR abuses in Sri Lanka are pale in comparison to HR
abuses that has happened and are taking place in Iraq.
If you quoted the sources, then it would have been possible to verify
your statements. By avoiding sources you could publish any canard. Without
sources or references, the reports could be the opinion of a person,
rather than a fact.
So if you make allegations, we would like to know references and sources,
so that these could be verified.
I would say, if you do not want to defend your self, please do not
make wilds unsubstantiated accusations about Sri Lanka. If these so
called experts attempt to tarnish the image of Sri Lanka, with unsubstantiated
statements, then their reputation may go the same way as that of Prof.
Meadows. Many are already questioning the competency of some HR organisations.
The report failed to identify the perpetrator of the aggression, ie
LTTE attempting to create a racist, mono ethnic state and the victim,
ie Sri Lanka.
The recommendations appeared to be that of an arrogant neo-colonialist,
with the same sort of arrogance and confidence Prof Meadows displayed.
The report is a hollow report, demonstrated lack of analytical skills,
as it did not cover main issues, did not indicate the sources for various
statements, lacked relevant substance, and merely serve as a LTTE propaganda
document. This report has biased criticism of GOSL, mostly ignored or
marginalised LTTE murders of civilians and ethnic cleansing, has very
little coverage to issues fuelling terrorism, marginalised treatment
of LTTE fund raising and other criminal activities of LTTE, ignored
statements made by TMVP regarding LTTE and Prabakaran, and appear to
be a propaganda document to tarnish the image of Sri Lanka. In a nutshell,
this report failed to identify the perpetrator LTTE, the racist group
trying to create a racist Tamil State, with global funds, and the victim
Sri Lanka trying to survive. The report indicate that ICGs grasp
of the situation in Sri Lanka is limited. If this report shows a typical
quality of a report produced by ICG, then they have been giving misleading
, unsubstantiated, biased information, what may even be called garbage
to key international decision-takers.
Just like it happened with, Prof. Meadows, we may need to look at situations
again.
It appears that ICG has another agenda, which is creating ground work
for invasion, which is likely to create a blood bath similar to the
one in Iraq.
No offence was intended to ICG or Mr Evans, but the truth needs to
be exposed and justice done for Sri Lanka.
Appendix A
Reply from ICG
Thank you for sending Crisis Group your letter concerning current events
in Sri Lanka and Crisis Group's reporting on conflict.
We agree with you that terrorism and violence in Sri Lanka, as anywhere
in the world, is totally unacceptable. However, I completely disagree
with your implication that we are biased towards the LTTE and that our
reporting of the situation in Sri Lanka has been undertaken by an LTTE
agent.
I suggest that you do not make comments that you cannot substantiate
and/ or are nonsense. For example:
"And now the International Crisis Group has the audacity to tell
Sri Lanka not to defend Sri Lanka," - where have we said this or something
remotely approximating this?
"If Mr Evans is thinking about R2P, then he should start that in Australia,
his home country."
"ICG paid no attention to ethnic cleansing, killing, child fighters
by LTTE" - See our last report on human rights in Sri Lanka (June
2007)where we have a short section on this.
"It appears that Mr Evans is preaching racism." - where is
your justification for this allegation? You are free to disagree with
what he saysbut not to make unsubstantiated comments such as this.
I invite you to look again at our reports, as well as those by other
international respected and independent organisations such as the United
Nations, Human Rights Watch etc, rather than relying on solely one website
and its forums, to inform yourself better.
Original letters see to ICJ and I CG For my original letters see to
ICJ and I CG see " Open letter to the International Commission
of Jurists "http://www.lankaherald.com/
I suggest you do not reply to this message as you are unlikely to get
a response.
Appendix B
Further response
(3) Your statement in your reply to me : - See our last report on
human rights in Sri Lanka (June 2007)
My response:- I could not see any reference to Dollar farm and Kent
farm
massacres or any reference to ethnic cleansing. Could you please give
me the report number or any other means to find it. The incident and
ethnic cleansing are so important that it should have been placed in
a visible and noticeable part of the report and not strategically hidden.
(4) Your report root causes of the conflict
My response:-
- Racist Tamils trying to carve out a part of Sri Lanka and then start
a Tamil empire.
- Bogus refugees funding terror in Sri Lanka
- Sri Lanka is fighting for survival against a racist empire building
Tamil business organisation
- For funding of LTTE refer to:
ref: 1 http://www.janes.com/news/security/jir/jir070810_1_n.shtml
ref 2 See Janes Intelligence Review)
(http://www.janes.com/press/press/pc070719_1.shtml
The root cause of the problem in Sri Lanka could be attributed to a
number of factors. Favouring Tamils by Western countries in giving residency,
turning a blind eye to their fund raising, allowing bogus charities
tax free fund raising, providing grants to Tamil groups by local authorities
and probably providing free legal aid.
(5) Report 135
Your statement:- the government is using extra-judicial killings
and enforced disappearances
My response:-
This statement is unsubstantiated and no evidence whatsoever provided.
Did UK manage to catch the killer of Steven Lawrence, an innocent Black
student killed and the killer was not given any punishment. Lawrence
case is merely tip of the ice burg, and I am sorry that I had to mention
it. UK could not even catch a murder and punish the killer. What happened
to Jean Charles de Menezes ?
You are just hounding Sri Lanka and providing propaganda for LTTE
(6) Your statement:- the government is using extra-judicial
killings and enforced disappearances
My response:-
An allegation usually made by LTTE agents.
Other Governments have used covert operations when national security
is at risk. Eg USA, UK etc. So please dont hound Sri Lanka, deal
with more powerful countries first.
ref:
1. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20070128/ai_n17158304
2. http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1868920,00.html
3. http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/pro-freedom.co.uk/cov_us.html
(7) Asia Report N°134
Racist because reports appear to favour Tamils, as there is
no criticism of Dollar and Kent farm murders and no criticism of ethnic
cleansing by Tamils.
(8) Comments on your reply
And now the International Crisis Group has the audacity to tell Sri
Lanka not to defend Sri Lanka,"
My reply:-
What did Mr Evans mean by Potential case for global intervention
in Sri Lanka
Did he mean Dont liberate north otherwise -----
Not to liberate north is a typical expectation of an LTTE agent
or LTTE sympathiser.
It is the primary duty of a Govt. to protect the national sovereignty,
territorial integrity of the state. Sri Lankan Govt. is just trying
to do that resisting racist empire builders and neo colonialists.
The whole mess and mayhem in Sri Lanka is caused by Western countries
allowing bogus refugees residential status and then turning a blind
eye to their fund raising. India started the crisis by training and
arming LTTE.
LTTE agents most certainly will not label themselves as LTTE agents
or sympathisers. They are more likely to use subtle influence so that
their victim is unaware of what is happening. When they wanted to kill
the Army commander of SL, they sent a pregnant women.
If the ICG thought LTTE agents would come with labels and identification
badges then ICG is more naive than I thought.
The implications of (1) to (6) is that ICG has been manipulated by
LTTE, as the ideas of ICG coincide with the ideas of LTTE. Therefore
I am justifying in stating that ICG is reflecting the views of LTTE.
Usually LTTE manipulate people by using lavish gifts and entertainment.
How ever this technique is unique to LTTE.
Without knowing the background, income and resources of researchers
of NGOs, it is difficult to state with certainty. If the statements
of LTTE and NGOs are similar, one cannot be blamed for having
a link.
In fact it was recently found
If NGOs are to be trusted, they should not be biased and they
should be transparent. NGOs such as ICG should be able to defend
their statements.
I need to refresh the memory of the public about Prof. Meadows
another expert. This expert, made the life of innocent people hell,
because of the wrong conclusions he came to. Now it reminds me of various
experts who claim to defend human rights and discredit Sri
Lanka, the same way Prof. Meadows did. These experts from ICG and HRW
do not blame the aggressor but blame the victim, the same way as Prof
Meadows did. What conclusions have many come to about the competency
of the so called experts ? It has expressed by many already and there
is no point repeating it.
The so called experts, if they are unable to defend their statements,
or make unfounded accusations on a sovereign state, then they should
not be in international bodies.
If the ICG is not prepared to defend their statements and refuse to
reply or respond to genuine public concerns, then their is serious doubt
about their integrity, credibility and their neutral stand.
No one accuses the Red Cross to be biased. Trust has to be earned.
Trust does not automatically come in just because there is a title or
a label. Very few HR organisations are now trusted, because of their
bias to terrorists and the massive financial clout of LTTE and their
readiness to bribe people.
(9) Recommendation on TMVP
Recommendation on Karuna by the ICG is also irrational. Why only restrict
TMVP for unarmed activity when a much more dangerous LTTE is allowed
to go armed. If the recommendations of ICG is carried out, LTTE would
take no time in eliminating TMVP, as has happed in the past to political
opponents of LTTE. Disarming Karuna is a requirement of LTTE. So this
report simply regurgitate LTTE requirements.
I will put it across very politely, and very confidently, that ICG
does not appear to have much grasp of the situation in Sri Lanka. ICG
is probably good at creating a crisis, as they are attempting to do
now in Sri Lanka.
Does the West treat the Al Quaeda group as equals ? Again it is rather
sad that some groups have no principles, have double standards, no morality
or knowledge of values or ethics.
Please read the article of a well educated Professor for his opinion
on NGO s -
Forget the public opinions of the NGOs and the Parliamentarians
who are on the payroll of the LTTE http://www.lankaweb.com/news/items07/090807-3.html
Rather sadly, some NGOs have already lost their credibility.
As for your comments on web sites, HRW publish unsubstantiated canards.
The reputation of HRW is questionable and unfortunately lost their
credibility in the eyes of many.
http://www.asiantribune.com/index.php?q=node/6894
Lankaweb, aseantribune and spur are respected for their accuracy and
honesty and they are on no bodys pay roll. You can get honest
views from these sites.
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